Curse

Klance · Jun 26, 2010, 03:27 PM // 15:27

I honestly believe that elementalists need to be buffed.

Due to the sheer simplicity of PvE (including HM) eles can DO in all PvE areas, but they cannot do anything particularly well (insofar that they are outclassed by other classes EXCEPT for prot/heals with ER, the one notable exception).

The simple fact that you CAN do HM areas does not make a class balanced, simply on the basis that a human character with an empty bar with heroes/henchies can do most HM areas.

1. Offense

Eles are generally subpar to other classes for offense for three main reasons.

Firstly they are purely confined to doing armor sensitive damage (exceptions for tenai's crystals/crystal wave/obsidian flame/energy blast). All other classes can do non-armor sensitive damage, which means that in general eles comparatively perform poorly in HM (and against heavily armored enemies in general).

Of course there are work arounds:

(i) Use AP to fuel PvE skills - but any caster can do this, and arguably better, and does not really involve using weak elementalist skills.

(ii)Spirit spam - run an inferior rit bar is not an attractive option

(iii)Use of cracked armor/PvE skills (BuH, Intensity, EBSoH) - again, any class can use this, and arguably other classes can use these buffs better (for example the boost from BuH on non armor sensitive damage is higher than the boost you get from ele spells).

Secondly, when compared to physical classes there are a lack of viable ways to boost elemental damage. Cracked armor aside, the rest are basically PvE skills. Physicals gain OoP/OoV/SoH/Weapon spells along with the PvE buffs.

The ONE 'advantage' is that elementalist spells do AoE damage. This is NOT a sufficient 'advantage':

1. Other classes have it as well (100b, death blossem, DwG, RoJ, splinter weapon, barrage etc)
2. Most of the AoE is tiny and therefore unless playing tank'n'spank, in general PvE play if lucky you might hit one or two extra enemies.
3. Enemies run out of DoT

Lastly is the lack of room on a bar to fit in skills to do damage. With the need for at least two e-management skills (attunement, GoLE, Glowing Gaze etc) an elementalist is limited in their ability to place damage skills onto their bar. Especially as PvE skills eat up three more slots.

Searing Flames aside, all other elementalist skills have a moderate to high cooldown meaning that a number of them are needed on the bar to continuously output damage.

A side note is that unlike other classes, a damage dealing elementalist lacks room on the skill bar to use support skills from their secondary.

The only really viable option (aside from AP+PvE skills) is Searing Flames. It fulfills the requirements, has a large AoE, low CD, mana cost can be covered by other skills, and has a decent base damage (though VERY reduced in HM - to around 30 damage to a heavily armored target), and inflicting burning.

Thus overall elementalists are quite limited in their ability to do damage EFFICIENTLY in PvE (especially versus high armor targets in NM and basically all targets in HM).

2. Defence

ER prot/heal eles are outstanding in defence, but no matter WHAT you perceive the role of eles to be it is not that of a healer. Furthermore pumping out overpowered heal/prots with unlimited mana/HP with ER is not indicative of what eles should be doing.

Earth wards - Wards are nice, other classes can do it better (aegis, SY, Stand Your Ground, enfeebling blood, communing spirits etc). The limited range, the necessity of human kiting or auto-kiting by heroes and long cooldowns means that the defensive wards are not overall helpful.

3. Support

Again arguably ER blood spam is useful, and again i don't think the role of the ele was concieved to be 'pumping out non-class skills with ER'.

Snares - eles excel at snares and a whole line is basically dedicated to thein PvE there have been many threads that have argued successfully that simply outputting more dps to kill faster is more useful. Also arguably ES war does this so much better and does damage at the same time.

Conditions - mainly focused on air, also most conditions (bar weakness, and eles reliably deep wound) are of limited use in PvE and the useful ones are more easily covered by other classes or PvE skills.

Knockdown - Eles can knockdown foes, but this does not create a viable bar. Meteor shower has a long cast time and cooldown and enemies kite out of the AoE. Earthquake is costly and causes exhaustion. And stoning spam...well is stoning spam. Again a ES war or a PI mesmer is so much more useful if you want reliable knockdown.

Conclusion

While an elementalist can be USED in PvE, there is very little incentive to ACTUALLY use an elementalist.

Aside from the sheer power of ER, eles are quite limited in their ability to play EFFICIENTLY in PvE (mainly HM), especially compared with other classes. Honestly, it is simply more efficient to take other classes to deal damage with than and simply use eles as the monk.

Mashiyu · Jun 26, 2010, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Thanks for summing the problems of eles up. But I don't think that the ele will be changed in the near future. ANet is going to balance/buff GvG, Dervish and Para first. And there's also WiK. I think the next ele buff comes with GW2 ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klance

a human character with an empty bar with heroes/henchies can do most HM areas.

NERF EMPTY SKILLBAR!

Cuilan · Jun 26, 2010, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klance

While an elementalist can be USED in PvE, there is very little incentive to ACTUALLY use an elementalist.

People will use elementalists because they're easy to use, easy to get into groups with, and how widely used they are by other players.

Klance · Jun 27, 2010, 01:59 AM // 01:59

And people used Mending warriors as well...that doesn't mean Mending warriors are not underpowered.

Same principle with eles, just because people use them/they are popular doesn't change the fact that they are underpowered.

Cuilan · Jun 27, 2010, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klance

And people used Mending warriors as well...that doesn't mean Mending warriors are not underpowered.

Same principle with eles, just because people use them/they are popular doesn't change the fact that they are underpowered.

It may mean there are players who use them who play better with them than players here or see something in them you don't. People don't search for mending warriors, so that's a pretty bad example.

Klance · Jun 27, 2010, 02:20 AM // 02:20

As I've said above, if elemantalists choose to use elementalist skills they are limited to armor sensitive damage(with four exceptions). Armor sensitive damage does reduced damage to high armor targets, which is further reduced in HM. This is simply a game mechanic that people playing the game cannot change by simply changing skills/builds (high armor = less elemental damage).

Unless you can provide an example of an effective elementalist build, my point stands that elemetalists are generally inferior in dealing damage. The power of armor sensitive elemental damage does not magically increase simply because more people are using armor sensitive damage.

expugnare · Jul 16, 2010, 09:08 PM // 21:08

The question now becomes how to adress the problems listed above, assuming Anet plans any meaningful changes in the future.

Mashiyu · Jul 17, 2010, 11:29 PM // 23:29

I dont know if you had read the whole thread, but some people made suggestions here - and the easiest solution would be an Intensity buff (gives armor penetration to all ele spells [btw: what about air], doesnt affect pvp balance at all)

Someone on guru suggested (not here) that the HM monsters should only gain life bonuses and not armor buffs (HM monsters get only +12AR [4 lvls] but thats much for eles)

There have been also suggestions like reducing cooldowns and an energy storage buff, but this would ruin the pvp balance. (I believe that eles in PvP are fine [correct me if I'm wrong], as the game is balanced for lvl 20 and the melees have no access to insane dmg buffs via PvE skills.)

Edit: I've forgotten the idea to make the increase armor penalties against a specific element for monsters. Actually, I dont really feel any difference between fire and water against destroyers (default example in this thread^^), as water tends to have lower base dmg than fire. Destroyers have neigher a bonus nor a malus against lightning dmg, but air is the best because of armor penetration. (even "bester" would be the AP pve skill spammer or ER healing/protting -.-)

Mouse at Large · Jul 18, 2010, 02:45 PM // 14:45

I suggested in another thread

"For eles, a simple solution comes to mind.................either

Add 2 points of +damage (armour ignoring) per lvl in ES to offensive spells

or

Add 1.5% AP per lvl in ES to offensive spells"

Just a thought

Cuilan · Jul 18, 2010, 03:18 PM // 15:18

People keep mentioning Destroyers, yet there are foes weak to fire and other elements. People in this thread really hate elementalists.

Mashiyu · Jul 18, 2010, 10:45 PM // 22:45

@Mouse: The 1.5% AP should only be applied in PvE (yay, another attribute with pvp split) Would monsters get the bonus too? (Do monsters get the PvE version of fastcasting?) That would make ele bosses even more dangerous...

@Cuilan: People keep mentioning destroyers, because everyone knows their armor bonus and malus (and because they are one of the very few monster types which are immune to burning and therefore the SF build does not work against them.) and not because they hate elementalists. Noone whines about completely broken eles here (like derv or para players). Their only problem is the high armour in HM (and that they need PvE skills to deal the dmg promised in the skill description)

I personally bring - regardless of elemental strengths/weaknesses - air, just because the 25% AP outweighs any +/-10armor bonus/malus. I see NO reason in considering the monster's elemental weaknesses because air is better anyway*. Theres something wrong with this system...

_____________
* Even "more better" would be playing the secondary (SoS, DwG, ER Heal/Prot/Bond/Order) or misusing AP for PvE skill spamming)

Cuilan · Jul 18, 2010, 10:54 PM // 22:54

There are times on other professions that I know I can't use many builds as effectively, I just adapt. Or we can just nerf all foes to dirt.

Klance · Jul 20, 2010, 04:25 AM // 04:25

That's exactly the point, elementalists CANNOT adapt due to the fact that they are stuck with doing elemental damage.

The suggested fixes so far are:

1. Split ES is pvp and pve, and grant some form of bonus to pve ES (additional AP or bonus damage). This obviously is not optimal as pve HM elementalists would gain the same bonuses (though in light of the most recent change to Fast Casting, there maybe a way to balance it).

2. Add some form of buff to the pve only skill Intensity such that it provides a bigger or additional bonus to elementalist spells. Of course doing this would basically staple Intensity onto all elemenalist damage bars in way a similar to attunements being stapled onto elementalist bars.

3. Reduce armor of HM enemies but increase their HP. This would serve to rebalance the effectiveness of armor sensitive and armor ignoring damage. The downside is that this is a huge change and arguably would be hard to implement effectively and in a balanced manner.

Of course with Anet's planned changes to paras and dervs, elementalists are low on their list of priorities and I believe that in the foreseeable future we should just make do with what we have (AP+pve skills, elemental damage+BuH/Intensity/EBSoH, abuse ER).

Lanier · Jul 20, 2010, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klance

3. Reduce armor of HM enemies but increase their HP. This would serve to rebalance the effectiveness of armor sensitive and armor ignoring damage. The downside is that this is a huge change and arguably would be hard to implement effectively and in a balanced manner.

This is the better option right here because

a. it doesnt actually contribute to power creep due to nothing actually getting buffed.

b. there are other spells besides ele ones that deal elemental damage. Dervs can deal earth and cold damage with their spells. Necros can deal cold damage with their spells. Rits can deal lightning damage with their spells. Monks have that zealot's fire spell that deals fire damage. The thing is that although adding armor penetration to an ele pve spell like intensity may fix the issue for eles, adjusting enemy armor and health fixes the issue for all users of elemental damage. Personally, i would like to be able to bring a channeling build and not feel as though i absolutely have to utilise CwD or DwG in the same way im sure many of the eles here are tired of feeling as though they have to use the air magic line to do damage.

Cuilan · Jul 20, 2010, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klance

That's exactly the point, elementalists CANNOT adapt due to the fact that they are stuck with doing elemental damage.

That's news to me. I'm sorry to hear that you personally cannot adapt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

i would like to be able to bring a channeling build and not feel as though i absolutely have to utilise CwD or DwG in the same way

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Pv...ame=&Go=Submit
Then do it.

Players will still bring damage buffs and ways to get more damage through regardless of whatever changes are done to PvE or skills. That's common sense.

Mashiyu · Jul 20, 2010, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klance

I believe that in the foreseeable future we should just make do with what we have (AP+pve skills, elemental damage+BuH/Intensity/EBSoH, abuse ER).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Pv...ame=&Go=Submit
Then do it.

Do you see the point?

Edit: I would try to drop Echo for DwG for the AP (especually in HM)...
Edit2: Forget what I've said - I wasn't aware that ancestor's rage deals armor-ignoring dmg (bug?)

Perfected Shadow · Jul 20, 2010, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Eles dun need buff, they too pr0. here's the reason:

Cuilan · Jul 20, 2010, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mashiyu

Do you see the point?

Yes, that elementalists aren't a profession for you.

Lanier · Jul 20, 2010, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Pv...ame=&Go=Submit
Then do it.

You're kind of proving my point right here. Im trying to say that the gap between armor ignoring damage and elemental damage is too big, and you give me a build full of armor ignoring damage. Why would a rit use their lightning damage skills when they have access to ancestors rage, splinter weapon, renewing surge, and the spirit's armor ignoring damage? Why would a necro use deathly swarm or his other cold damage spells when he could inflict armor ignoring damage with skills like discord, defile enchantments, and desecrete enchantments? Why would a dervish use his elemental damage enchantments when he could be inflicting armor ignoring bonus damage with his scythe attacks? Why would a smite monk use zealot's fire when he could inflict armor ignoring holy damage? The issue of armor ignoring damage vs. elemental damage extends beyond the elementalist to many other professions as well. The fact of the matter is that the gap between armor ignoring damage and elemental damage needs to decrease some. Im not saying make them equal, but i think that against casters in hard mode, elemental damage should do about the same amount of damage as armor ignoring damage. Let armor ignoring damage continue to do slightly more against physical classes with their higher natural armor, but the difference of damage potential between armor ignoring and elemental damage should be similar to what it is in PvP, and the way to do that is to lower monster's armor in hard mode and compensate for their survivability by increasing their health.

Mashiyu · Jul 20, 2010, 11:41 PM // 23:41

@Cuilan: Which profession would you recommend for me? And thx again for proving his point.